November 11 (Veterans Day/Martinmas/Old Halloween

[Murfreesboro]

Has any of you heard of the ancient connections of Nov 11?

My daughter was exploring this topic yesterday and informed me that Nov 11, which we observe as Veterans Day, has an older significance. In previous centuries it was called St Martin's Day (Martinmas), and in many places it incorporated customs we associate with Halloween, like bonfires and mumming (sort of an early form of ToTing). At one time it was even called "Old Halloween." She thought that was because of the early 18th century calendar change, when eleven days were added to the calendar to bring it more in sync with the solar year. I don't know if that's the case. But apparently in many places, especially on the European continent, people thought of this date as the end of harvest and beginning of winter, much as the people in the British Isles regarded Samhain, and many of the same customs accrued.

I found this quite interesting. Apparently St Martin is associated with geese, so eating a goose was a common practice. Centuries ago, the church even imposed a 40-day fast, from St Martin's Day through Epiphany (Jan 6), to parallel the Lenten fast. But that was shortened to Advent (the four weeks preceding Christmas) later in the medieval period, as celebrating Christmas became more popular.

Anyway, I thought it was fascinating that Nov 11 was once known as "Old Halloween."

Maybe this should be moved to the "other holidays" forum. Please feel free to do that.

[Andybev01]

Oooo...I love learning new things related to old customs!

[Murfreesboro]

So do I, and I figured many of our friends on this forum might also find it interesting.

[MauEvig]

Never knew that about Veteran's day. I think that's really interesting. Like many of you I enjoy learning about old cultural traditions.
I also like learning about cultural traditions from other countries. It's nice seeing how these things have evolved.
And living in America, I enjoy how the different traditions blend together over the millenia.

[Murfreesboro]

Yeah, there's more than one St Martin, but this one is St Martin of Tours. He lived In the 4th century and is the patron St of beggars and outcasts. There's a story that he tore his cloak in half to share it with a freezing beggar.

[Murfreesboro]

I thought I'd revive this old thread today. I was just reading about St Martin's Day customs in the Catholic parts of Germany. Children 10 and under carry lanterns and sing songs (hymns?) door to door, after which they are rewarded with treats. I wonder if our ToT customs were influenced at all by German immigrants?

I'm bad at making links, but you can look up St Martin's Day customs in Germany and read about it for yourself.